The proper understanding of the Bible.
Ah, this response doesn't really go into the religion of science topic so well, since it is more the religion of Christianity. :-| This seems like the closest topic I could find. Of course, there are a few things that need to be clarified. I bolded the main points I am making to make it a little clearer what the main points are.
Point: The Bible is the source of Christian beliefs
From Bible Inerrancy Doubter (BID): Unless you would like to argue that your beliefs are better than mine. I do believe Jesus had some words to say about that, yes?
Yes he did...
From Luke 24: 25He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
From John 5: 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?
And Luke writes in the book of Acts:
From Acts 17:11: Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Yes, we are to believe what the Bible teaches.
Point: The Bible intends the creation account to be understood as an actual historical event.
From Matthew 12: 24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"
From BID: Funny. It looks to me like Jesus is referring to a passage in a book.
Yes. He criticizes the Sadducees for not knowing Scripture and then references it. Jesus believed the event was a true historical account.
From BID: Not an exact historical account!
Now you're going to make me quote all these passages in context, aren't you. *sighs* Very well.
From Exodus 20: 8"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
This reference to the Sabbath day is clearly in the context of a normal 7-day week. A straightforward view would view the six days and the seventh day of creation the same way.
From Psalm 33:1, 6-9: 1 Sing joyfully to the LORD, you righteous;
it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
...
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea into jars;
he puts the deep into storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD;
let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.
This is a psalm praising the LORD for his power and grace. One of the reasons for praising the LORD is his power demonstrated in the creation of the world. The Psalm is referencing the statements like "And God said, 'Let there be light,'" Genesis 1:3. This isn't praise for some nebulous god that caused a "big bang" to create the universe over billions of years. This is praise for an actual almighty personal God who said "Let there be light," and there was light.
From Matthew 19: 3Some Pharisees came to him to test him [Jesus]. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus, when asked a question about divorce, referred back to Genesis 1 and 2 as an explanation of marriage. And he discussed it as if it were a real event. He says that is the way it was at the beginning. And he discussed Moses as a real person.
From Luke 3: 23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
Genealogies aren't always the most interesting reading, but they do serve an important role. This particular one connects Jesus back to the first man, Adam. And the way it does so makes it clear that it is talking about all these people as actual historical people who lived. People who are familiar with the Bible would probably recognize some of the names listed, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and David should be familiar. Once again making the connection that these people lived real lives, parts of their stories are recorded in the Bible, and Jesus is their descendant.
I could go on with the other passages, but the point is clear. The book of Genesis describes actual historical people and actual historical events.
Point: The Bible needs to be read in the context in which it is written.
As for Leviticus, there is no reason to not to discuss that. First it is important to note the context into which the book was written. The laws in Leviticus were given to the historical nation of Israel approximately one year after the Exodus from Egypt at the foot of Mount Sinai. These were the people chosen by God to be his special people:
From Deuteronomy 7:6: For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
A few of the verses referenced:
From Leviticus 11:1,2,7-8: 1The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2"Say to the Israelites: ... 7And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
Here the LORD specifically spoke to Moses and Aaron and gave the Israelites a law not to eat pigs.
From Leviticus 12:1-5: The LORD said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.
Here again the LORD spoke specifically to Moses and gave laws for the Israelites to follow regarding birth.
From Leviticus 25:1-2,44-46: The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ... 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Again this is a specific rule concerning slavery that the LORD spoke specifically to Moses. Now we may think we're so "enlightened" that we don't have slavery in the US today, but slavery has been around for a long time. And for provisions to be made for it by the LORD to the Israelites makes good sense.
So in this context we see in the book of Leviticus the LORD giving specific laws for his chosen nation, the Israelites, to follow. This is at a specific time in history, after the Exodus from Egypt, and at a specific location, Mt. Sinai. That part is literal.
So why don't Christians follow these rules today? For one reason, we aren't the literal nation of Israel today. For another:
From Colossians 2: 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
and
From Hebrews 10: 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. ... 8First he [Jesus] said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The laws the LORD gave to the Israelites a shadow, a preview, of the work of Jesus Christ. All the rules about uncleanness showed how easy it is to be tainted by sin and the need for cleansing. So, this is a figurative picture, a picture given through the literal, in time, laws given by God through Moses.
The Bible does at time use figurative language and various parts of speech, the important rules to follow are that what the Bible SAYS it MEANS and what the Bible MEANS it SAYS, and Scripture interprets Scripture.
So, the Bible treats the laws in Leviticus as actual laws given to a specific nation at a specific point in time, with these laws illustrating a figurative picture about the coming Christ. The Bible says that.
And again, the Bible treats the creation account in Genesis as an actual event at a specific point in time.
Point: The Bible itself was inspired by God
First notice the accounts in Leviticus. We read:
From Leviticus 11:1, 12:1, 25:1: The LORD said...
The LORD at times directly spoke and his words were recorded.
From 2 Peter 1:16: We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
From Luke 1: 1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
The people who wrote the Bible were eyewitnesses of the events, or had access to them.
From Mark 14:49: But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.
From John 10:35: and the Scripture cannot be broken
From Matthew 15:4: For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
Jesus calls it God's Word and says it must be fulfilled.
From 2 Peter 1: 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
From 1 Thessalonians 2:13: And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God,
From 2 Timothy 3:16: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
The writing of the Bible itself, was led by God.
So my four points:
Point: The Bible is the source of Christian beliefs
Point: The Bible intends the creation account to be understood as an actual historical event.
Point: The Bible needs to be read in the context in which it is written.
Point: The Bible was inspired by God.
This leads to the next point.
Point: The "Theory of Evolution", understood to mean that every creature evolved from bacteria, directly undermines what the Bible teaches.
From BID: Accepting science doesn't mean you have to renounce or lessen your faith in any way, nor does it mean that religion is wrong.
You claim this, but is it true?
Do you think believing in a mythical Jesus is the same as believing in a real Jesus? That believing in a "god" that at best could create life from bacteria is the same as believing in God who created man in his image? That believing a book is a bunch of made up stories is the same as believing that a book is inspired by God and the writers wrote down true historical accounts?
If you are willing to believe the first part of the question instead of the second because you believe that "science" teaches that you evolved from apes, why might I think that accepting "science" in this case renounces your faith? I use quotes around science here because I am not talking about science in general but this specific teaching that humans evolved from apes and lower creatures.
From BID: If you look at the Bible and tease out the different meanings of the stories, you can find out a lot more than you ever could have just taking it word for word.
Oh, you can get a whole lot out of the Bible taking it word for word. :)
From BID: I just happen to be open-minded about stuff.
This sounds "good". Who wants to be close-minded?
So, are you open-minded to the possibility that maybe God knows better what happened at the beginning of the world than human scientists millennia later?
Are you open to the possibility that God can control the forces of nature?
Are you open to the possibility that Jesus actually knows what he's talking about when referencing the Old Testament?
Are you open to the possibility that Jesus is God?
Are you open to the possibility that Jesus knows how the heart works better than any human?
Are you open to the possibility that the teaching of "evolution" is just like any other religion, a group of people with particular beliefs passing them down without direct evidence, but by faith?
From BID: What's wrong with using science to explore the world that God created, and to further understand His observable works? Why not explore how evolution panned out over the ages and marvel at the system God constructed to keep His world in working order after He made it? Wouldn't He want us to understand and thereby further enjoy the Earth that we reside on by His grace?
There is nothing wrong with this, as long as you mean "evolution" to be similar to the changes seen today (diversity inside of "kinds", not changing from one kind to another)
Science isn't even the problem here. The problem is with people assuming that God is weak or nonexistant and couldn't create the world, assuming that God didn't reveal anything to people or that a human guess is better than revelation from God, and assuming that things have been going on as they have been for billions! of years.
Then taking that assumption and making a "theory" out of it. Making claims about the origins of man without being able to test them. Making claims about science "knowing" better than the Bible. Not subjecting the "theory" to critical analysis, but accepting evidence for it and rejecting evidence against it. Then teaching young people this "theory" without explaining the assumptions behind it. Explaining that "fundamentalists" are against science if they disagree with the "theory".
I hope it is clear to people why I keep discussing this topic. It is not just because I want to argue. It is because this topic and ones similar to it have very real spiritual and truth based consequences. There is a very real reason why the "Theory of Evolution" is so controversial. It is because of the religious (and anti-religious) implications of it.
From BID: Evolution is a pretty sound theory. As yet, you haven't given me any solid evidence that macroevolution is false. You may have poked a few holes in the fossil records, but you have yet to prove to me that the entire concept is invalid.
At the same time, you haven't shown any solid evidence that macroevolution is true. You believe it on faith. You are putting your trust more in a group of human scientists and in a process that begins with a guess and is affected by a person's world view more than the contents of the Bible. This is something you need to realize. And it is something that everyone needs to realize. What is the ultimate authority on what is true? Is it science? Is it a book? Is it something else? If there is a conflict between two sources, which are you more likely to believe? Why?
*chuckles* That should be enough to ponder on for a while.
Written May 2008